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FT8 and Q65 to JA during TEP on 2m
- FT8 and Q65 to JA during TEP on 2m
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FT8 and Q65 to JA during TEP on 2m
VK2XAX > 10-02-2022, 10:25 AM
Hi all,
With the increasing TEP contacts on 6m their may be opportunity to try FT8 or Q65 on 2m to JA.
I've contacted a couple of JAs and the informed me they listen on 144.460 for both FT8 & Q65 - right in the middle of our beacon segment!
VK to JA has been done on 2m in the past on CW, most notably between VK8 and VK4 to JA so there is no reason why FT8 or Q65 wont make it
Those of us in the southern states may be able to make the trip too given recent conditions.
I've told the JA's they are welcome to join us on vkspotter, so don't be surprised if a few turn up there
Lets avago !
cheers
Tim -
RE: FT8 and Q65 to JA during TEP on 2m
VK2XAX > 10-02-2022, 03:16 PM
I'm going to see if I can get the JAs to move down to our frequency since 144.460 is actually a beacon in VK6!
Hopefully they can meet us on 144.320
-
RE: FT8 and Q65 to JA during TEP on 2m
VK6CPU > 11-02-2022, 10:06 AM
Speaking as a VK6 - is there really a need to try to move the mountain. Look for another solution.
The VK6 beacon only impacts on at the vey best less than an handful of operators in VK6 (if that!). It has no impact on operators elsewhere in VK.
Keep the status quo with the JAs. If EVER we get a hint of 2m TEP into the Perth area we can liase with the JA's via the clusters to QSY then. -
RE: FT8 and Q65 to JA during TEP on 2m
ZL1RS > 11-02-2022, 11:31 AM
... and using an offset of something like 2000Hz on 144.460 FT8/Q65 will place your TEP test signals at 144.462 MHz ... 2kHz away from the VK6 2m beacon frequency of 144.460 MHz. -
RE: FT8 and Q65 to JA during TEP on 2m
VK2XAX > 11-02-2022, 02:25 PM
Hi guys,
All good points - thanks
They are proposing Q65B-60 but I'm thinking the mode might need the be C or D given the issues with eTEP.
regards
Tim -
RE: FT8 and Q65 to JA during TEP on 2m
VK6CPU > 11-02-2022, 03:23 PM
A good point Bob! And I guess common practise on VHf/UHF is for many operators to keep the offset ~ 1500 hz to stay in the middle of narrow filters. -
RE: FT8 and Q65 to JA during TEP on 2m
VK5PJ > 12-02-2022, 07:56 AM
Having had 1st hand experience with 144 MHz TEP when in Alice Springs, the experience is much like working via the southern aurora. There is soo much multi path distortion in place the signal can be S5 but totally unintelligible. CW sounds like an old fashion mechanical buzzer. On SSB the signal has no right tuning spot as you can move the dial and it still sounds the same.
I seriously doubt any of the current digital modes will cut the mustard but if any will, Q65 C or D is probably going to be the one.
Pointers when looking for night time TEP on 144, the signals on 50 MHz will start to have a running watery sound to them. which is the multipath distortion, then you can start looking for 144. I seriously doubt it will creep this far south. At Alice Springs we only got to the very bottom of JA on 144, it was a thrill but really hard work for each contact. Tried the FM section of the band (145 MHz) but the signals had extreme HISS on them from the multipath and of course not many of the FM op's at that time had much understanding of English, which is probably not the case now.
Good luck but do not bet the house on it making it much below Rockhampton in VK4.
sorry to be the wet blanket but the night time TEP needs to be extreme for it to come south. The Darwin boys could use FM hand held radios to work them but that's the joys of the tropics I guess. -
RE: FT8 and Q65 to JA during TEP on 2m
VK2ZRH/4 > 12-02-2022, 06:24 PM
Evening-type TEP (eTEP) supports propagation on 2m, but there's a distance limit related to the geometry of the propagation mechanism, which is supported by equatorial plasma bubbles (tubes) that thread the low latitude ionosphere.
From what is known, based on what has been reported of amateur observations and contacts over past decades, as well as technical scientific propagation research, path lengths for eTEP are generally limited by geography (where suitably equipped amateurs live) and the geometry of the propagation mechanism via EPBs. The paths most often reported for 2m contacts range from 4000 to 6000 km; the 'extreme' seems to reach ~8000 km.
It is most unlikely to work JA on 2m from the northern suburbs of Perth, Adelaide or Sydney - Q65 or other digital weak signal modes notwithstanding. I have set out the general condition in my online exposition on eTEP, at: http://home.iprimus.com.au/toddemslie/eTEP-Harrison.htm
Given that paths to 8000 km have been established in the African-European sector, evening TEP contacts on at least 50 MHz, and conceivably 144 MHz, over such distances could be achieved between Australia and Japan, for example, from Coffs Harbour (or Armidale) in Northern NSW, or Woomera in South Australia, to JA7 on the northern coast of Honshu, Japan.
I presented a paper on TEP to the 2007 GippsTech Conference, which set out in detail the necessary conditions for success in making VK-JA contacts. It was published in the Proceedings. If you're interested, you might be able to buy a copy of the Proceedings from EZARC (vk3bez.org).
Take a look at the recent 2m TEP reports of South American / Caribbean contacts on the blog of John EI7GL, at: https://ei7gl.blogspot.com/
Cheers, Roger VK2ZRH -
RE: FT8 and Q65 to JA during TEP on 2m
VK2AZ > 12-02-2022, 07:49 PM
Very interesting Roger,
I found a list of actual contacts from that time on the dxmaps site:
https://www.dxmaps.com/tepocqsos.html
And the map:
https://www.dxmaps.com/tepoc.html
BOM also have a page regarding TEP:
http://www.sws.bom.gov.au/Educational/5/2/3
BTW, do you have a home page with a list of your articles somewhere?
The link you gave does not seem to have a link back to a home page.
Anyway, I love a good challenge, and this looks like an immense one :-)
Hilary
VK2AZ
-- -
RE: FT8 and Q65 to JA during TEP on 2m
OZ2M > 15-02-2022, 08:00 PM
Interesting to read about the use of southern aurora. I thought you guys were living to north to use this type propagation.
I simply love aurora since my early days of amateur radio. OK, things are different here in Europe where thousands of stations can be/were active in a big aurora lasting from the early afternoon to very late at night moving from east to west. I have worked many stations and squares I have never worked on other propagations.
Re the use of digital modes suitable for aurora. PI4 https://rudius.net/oz2m/ngnb/pi4.htm was designed to be a general purpose digital mode for beacon use. It is robust enough to be decoded via aurora, where a signal on 2 m is so heavily distorted, it can easily be 400 Hz wide. Here is a presentation from the RSGB 2018 convention about PI4 and why it is a success: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFcCncceSN4 it also provides some comments to the general issues of path irregularities.
Did you know that FT4 is more sensitive than FT8?
Bo
www.rudius.net/oz2m :: www.rfzero.net -
RE: FT8 and Q65 to JA during TEP on 2m
VK2ZRH/4 > 16-02-2022, 12:23 PM
Hi Bo,
VK and ZL amateurs living below about 40 degrees south geomagnetic latitude, or about 60 degrees south geomagnetic dip (the southern parts of VK2, VK5 and VK6, plus all of VK7 and ZL), have worked auroral propagation since the 1950s.
To clarify what you're saying - do you suggest that keen operators wanting to experiment with eTEP (Ducted-mode TEP) establish PI4 beacons in suitable locations in the north of VK (this would be north of 25 degrees geomagnetic latitude) ?
Cheers, Roger Harrison VK2ZRH/4 -
RE: FT8 and Q65 to JA during TEP on 2m
OZ2M > 16-02-2022, 05:25 PM
Hello Roger
Thanks for the description of the south aurora use. Good to know.
PI4 is definitely robust to TEP distortion. So yes, a relevant number PI4 + CW + carrier beacons will be a good opportunity to monitor TEP.
Bo
www.rudius.net/oz2m :: www.rfzero.net -
RE: FT8 and Q65 to JA during TEP on 2m
VK8AW > 19-09-2023, 06:52 PM
(12-02-2022, 06:24 PM)VK2ZRH/4 Wrote: Evening-type TEP (eTEP) supports propagation on 2m, but there's a distance limit related to the geometry of the propagation mechanism, which is supported by equatorial plasma bubbles (tubes) that thread the low latitude ionosphere.
From what is known, based on what has been reported of amateur observations and contacts over past decades, as well as technical scientific propagation research, path lengths for eTEP are generally limited by geography (where suitably equipped amateurs live) and the geometry of the propagation mechanism via EPBs. The paths most often reported for 2m contacts range from 4000 to 6000 km; the 'extreme' seems to reach ~8000 km.
It is most unlikely to work JA on 2m from the northern suburbs of Perth, Adelaide or Sydney - Q65 or other digital weak signal modes notwithstanding. I have set out the general condition in my online exposition on eTEP, at: http://home.iprimus.com.au/toddemslie/eTEP-Harrison.htm
Given that paths to 8000 km have been established in the African-European sector, evening TEP contacts on at least 50 MHz, and conceivably 144 MHz, over such distances could be achieved between Australia and Japan, for example, from Coffs Harbour (or Armidale) in Northern NSW, or Woomera in South Australia, to JA7 on the northern coast of Honshu, Japan.
I presented a paper on TEP to the 2007 GippsTech Conference, which set out in detail the necessary conditions for success in making VK-JA contacts. It was published in the Proceedings. If you're interested, you might be able to buy a copy of the Proceedings from EZARC (vk3bez.org).
Take a look at the recent 2m TEP reports of South American / Caribbean contacts on the blog of John EI7GL, at: https://ei7gl.blogspot.com/
Cheers, Roger VK2ZRH
Hi Roger,
New frontiers are being found.
I am currently working 5,000k + on eTEP to JA on 2mtrs FT8. 12 contacts to date, occurring towards the end of 6mtr watery FT8 openings.
All being done with a IC9700 - 100w and a single 12el yagi from Darwin.
regards
Gary
VK8AW -
RE: FT8 and Q65 to JA during TEP on 2m
VK3MEG > 20-09-2023, 11:26 AM
(15-02-2022, 08:00 PM)OZ2M Wrote: Interesting to read about the use of southern aurora. I thought you guys were living to north to use this type propagation.
I simply love aurora since my early days of amateur radio. OK, things are different here in Europe where thousands of stations can be/were active in a big aurora lasting from the early afternoon to very late at night moving from east to west. I have worked many stations and squares I have never worked on other propagations.
Re the use of digital modes suitable for aurora. PI4 https://rudius.net/oz2m/ngnb/pi4.htm was designed to be a general purpose digital mode for beacon use. It is robust enough to be decoded via aurora, where a signal on 2 m is so heavily distorted, it can easily be 400 Hz wide. Here is a presentation from the RSGB 2018 convention about PI4 and why it is a success: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFcCncceSN4 it also provides some comments to the general issues of path irregularities.
Did you know that FT4 is more sensitive than FT8?
Bo
www.rudius.net/oz2m :: www.rfzero.net
i have managed to record some southern aurora qso we had on 6m in 2018 i think. Its on youtube de vk3ktt (my new call) [Video: https://youtu.be/Nkg2TMFsMkE?si=O9BNTKvA21qtXKP7] -
RE: FT8 and Q65 to JA during TEP on 2m
JH6ETS > 24-09-2023, 06:13 AM
Hi Dear VK OM's
My nane is TAKA JH6ETS(ham radio since 1972)
Sep.11 1158Z JA6KJQ-VK8AW 2Way FT8 QSO! 144,46MHz
JA6KJQ(GL PM51 kagoshima-city) 30W,8mHGP
I think this QSO is the first time for JA-VK's 2m FT8
I also had a QSO with VK8AW and 1133Z on September 15th.
My QTH is located in Fukuoka Prefecture in the northern part of Kyushu,
so the signal doesn't seem to be as strong as in southern Kyushu. GL PM53LQ
There is information online that VK8AW signals have been received
in the JA4 area and Shimane Prefecture.
In March 1978, I was living in Oita Prefecture. (GL PM52) At this time,
I am QSOing with VK8GB, VK8VV, and VK8ZBB on 2m SSB.
This was the year that the first 2m QSO was held on JA-VK.
JA conducts FT8 QSO at 144.46MHz.
2m FT8 is possible up to 144.10-144.50MHz
The mainly used 144.46MHz will not change. -
RE: FT8 and Q65 to JA during TEP on 2m
VK5TM > 24-09-2023, 09:39 AM
This is the translated version of above (GLTongue in the text is the emoji):
Hello VK OM's!
My name is TAKA JH6ETS (Amateur Radio since 1972)
9/11 1158Z JA6KJQ-VK8AW 2Way FT8 QSO! 144.46MHz
JA6KJQ (GLTongueM51 Kagoshima City) 30W,8mHGP
I believe this is the first QSO with 2m FT8 on JA-VK.
I was also able to QSO with VK8AW and 1133Z on 15 September.
My QTH is located in Fukuoka Prefecture in northern Kyushu.
So the signal is not as strong as in southern Kyushu. GLTongueM53LQ
There are reports of VK8AW signals being received on the internet.
It is located in the JA4 area and in Shimane Prefecture.
In March 1978 I was living in Oita Prefecture. (GLTongueM52) At this time,
I have QSOs with VK8GB, VK8VV and VK8ZBB on 2m SSB.
This was the year of the JA-VK arena 2m QSOs.
JA has an FT8 QSO on 144.46 MHz.
2m FT8 is available from 144.10 to 144.50 MHz.
The main 144.46 MHz used remains the same. -
RE: FT8 and Q65 to JA during TEP on 2m
VK5PJ > 24-09-2023, 02:32 PM
thanks for the translate Terry, I was about to go and try that for myself then saw your post. At least now we know that the JA's are primarily on 144.46 for FT8, not that I will ever get the chance to use that info, my windows of extreme TEP is well and truly closed and FT8 would get too distorted at extreme range (my opinion) so another mode as always would be needed for the QSO and communicating that in a hurry to the far end is a logistical nightmare in this day and age.
There is a lot to be said for the usefulness of the old SSB net on 28.885 MHz that ran hot for many years/decades ( I was a Z call then ) but still clocked up a few cross band contacts by listening there when I was heard in Europe.
Back to my daydreams and chores. -
RE: FT8 and Q65 to JA during TEP on 2m
JH6ETS > 04-10-2023, 04:28 PM
Hello VK OM's!
When I was looking online about VK-JA's 2m TEP, I found something amazing.
(Mainly) Back in 1978, VK8GB seemed to be checking the days and number of QSOs
they were able to do against JA opponents. There seems to be quite a lot of JA-VK 2m TEP
throughout the year. (This table shows KJQ's calls at the bottom, so the recent ones may
have been automatically tallied.)
Looking at this table, it shows the months in which JA-VK is open. (January), February, March, April, May,
(June), (July), August, September, October. ( ) indicates the month with the least number of occurrences.
The time is about 10Z-12Z. Since the number of QSOs achieved in SSB and CW, the possibility of QSO should be
higher in digital mode.
https://www.dxmaps.com/tepocqsos.html?fb...aFCFsR0axk -
RE: FT8 and Q65 to JA during TEP on 2m
VK3ZAZ > 08-10-2023, 05:47 AM
Great item on WIA broadcast that VK8VTX made the first inroads and VK8RR et al made contacts on SSB and FT8.
Keep up the good work
It would be good for people to read back through Eric’s columns VK5LP in the archived issues of AR as well as old DX Bulletins by K6FV.
What comes to mind are the following.
How in 1982 and 1991 the VK 4 boys established the 2M Tep records into JA7 region
at 6800 km by driving north and west past Mt Isa chasing the sweet spots.
How Brasíl contacted Africa Europe by reportedly FAI. There were many reports.
And in vk how AU was the norm in 1979 1989 and to some extent 1999.
Heaps of recorded beacons and even two meter AU Es.
Furthest north I think was VK2 from VK5.
And of course the contacts to Antarctica in 1992 and 1995.
And Sojo into vk3 on 2 meters.
Looks like everything old is new again
And we hope the new digital age will produce something new.
And it just might, the tools are there. AI even. Patient robotic can run 24/7.
Like 2M wspr and 432 and 1296.
As one guy said Wspr is boring..
I strongly disagree
I copied Zl2 on wspr at 3050 km but was not prepared to turn it into a two way.
But then vk6 cpu and the Albany remote stepped thru 144 432 and up to 1296 to set a dx record that went even further into Melbourne region.
So with all this renewed discovery of 2m Tep
Everything old is new again..
Don’t reinvent the wheel.
The evidence is in the archives dates times April and October just like vk4bfo and vk4zsh found out in 82 and 91.
Do not know why no one pursued it in recent times..until now.
But I remember the discussions at the time when people were prepared to drive out into the outback to investigate propagation.
And how PJ and GF did heaps of investigation from Alice on fm radio bands and higher to try to make contacts.
I took an ic251 and a klm 100w amp and atn lpy 8 to Xmas Is in 1982 mainly for Oscar
but also heard fm from Hong Kong taxis on 146 MHz
And lots of flutter and some reports one way from vs6 stations who could not transmit back.
Also copied in Malaysia and Singapore..there is an article in ARA back in April 1982 discussing 2M tep.
Unsure what Mike vk9zyx cocos heard or Craig vk9xw later on.
But the digital tools are there for the taking.
Joe Taylor gave us some amazing tools that have extended the boundaries
Maybe there is a mode that will work on 2M tep..
If not better get out the old Morse key. Lol original digital mode
Maybe the prospect of some 2M dx will raise the bar
Certainly is lonely out there on 2M wspr and 6m even worse..
Norbert fromSERG flies out to Casey Base this week with ic7300 and at4 so dejavu Casey back on six after 31 years might work down there again in December 2023
Maybe even the Carnarvon remote can be repurposed like Albany..
2 cents worth -
RE: FT8 and Q65 to JA during TEP on 2m
VK6RO > 09-10-2023, 07:24 PM
In approx 1981/82/83 John VK6GU [now sk] worked JA on 2 metres from his QTH in Wyndham far north VK6.
Don't know how many he worked or what mode.
He told me himself a few weeks later.
There may be documented evidence of this somewhere.
All from memory
tnx
vk6ro
e&oe